Discussion:
wikisource "work" pages or "multiple editions" pages
(too old to reply)
helene78
2017-11-01 14:44:45 UTC
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The more I read about it-ws Opera namespace, the more I'm interested in it.

On frws we use "multiple editions" a lot, especially on poems and short
stories, that have been published in different collections. Do you do
that too ?

Also, I had a fantasy, these past weeks, working about "work items" on
wikidata, that we could point on wikisource "work" page, whether we have
1 or multiple editions.

Presently, when, for a poem, we have only 1 edition, we put it in its
collection subpage, and keed the poem title as redirect, then transform
it to "multiple editions" when we get some. This totally prevents to add
those to wikidata, because redirects are not supported ; thus, editions
are added to work items, by adding redirects.

I was wondering whether adding a template similar to "redirect with
possibility" (enwp) could help solve this problem.

Wonder what solution would be best, considering that the creation of a
full-developped "work-page" on a poem could be tricky...

So, what do you think all of you ?

Hélène (frwikisource)

Le 01/11/2017 à 00:54, wikisource-l-***@lists.wikimedia.org a écrit :
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: quickstatements for missing editions (Nicolas VIGNERON)
> 2. Hangout session (Nicolas VIGNERON)
> 3. Re: quickstatements for missing editions (Andrea Zanni)
> 4. Re: quickstatements for missing editions (Sam Wilson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 19:46:06 +0100
> From: Nicolas VIGNERON <***@gmail.com>
> To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free library"
> <wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] quickstatements for missing editions
> Message-ID:
> <CANTrCmge9BLtOMuD=mN+-***@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> 2017-10-31 18:45 GMT+01:00 Andrea Zanni <***@gmail.com>:
>
>> For the "work" concept, Italian Wikisource decided to create a real and
>> new namespace, "Opera" (which means work).
>> It's the one page where we store the links to multiple editions of a
>> certain book we have.
>>
>> It's not a disambiguation page in the sense that a disambiguation page
>> works with different books from different authors with the same title
>> e.g. "Poems"...
>>
>> Aubrey
>>
> I forgot about that too.
> Aubrey; Could you tell us the advantage and inconvenient of this system
> (and in comparison to the 'multiple editions' pages of the others
> Wikisources).
>
> Cdlt, ~nicolas
>
> PS: this is the kind of question that would be interesting to have during a
> hangout session like we had (I will write a separate mail to re-launch them)
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> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 20:03:31 +0100
> From: Nicolas VIGNERON <***@gmail.com>
> To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free library"
> <wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Wikisource-l] Hangout session
> Message-ID:
> <CANTrCmiygV_RPKKBZvdWcRzV=OgOT+A7gGXQhw1iR-***@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> >From January to April of this year, we had hangout session to talk more
> directly about Wikisource (see
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikisource_Community_User_Group#2017 for
> the notes of these sessions).
>
> Among subjects that can be discuss:
> - Wikisource and Wikidata (and some infos about the WikidataCon in Berlin
> last weekend)
> - a second Wikisource conference in 2018 ?
> - various issues or accomplishments you want to share or need help from
> others
> - the Wikisource Community User Group
>
> What do you think of doing this again? Who would be interested to join? (it
> was during week-end - Saturday or Sunday - afternoon to allow people from
> all other the globe to join in, I suggest Saturday 4 from 14:00 UTC to
> 15:00 UTC
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=November+Wikisource+Hangout&iso=2017-11-04T14:00:00
> ).
>
> Cdlt, ~nicolas
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> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 22:27:46 +0100
> From: Andrea Zanni <***@gmail.com>
> To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free library"
> <wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] quickstatements for missing editions
> Message-ID:
> <CAC=***@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> >From a Wikidata point of view, it's really good to have one dedicated page
> ofr the "work" and different ones for the "editions": you can structure
> both Wikisource and Wikidata with a clear structure, without ambiguities.
>
> This is an example of a Wikisource Work page:
> https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Opera:Filocolo
>
> These are very important books that have had different editions in the
> past, and a dedicated namespace is good so you can have
> * dedicated templates
> * dedicated categories
> * dedicated layout
>
> A disambiguation page is in ns0, and it's conceptually different from a
> "multiple edition" page... So in this way is easy to tell the difference.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 7:46 PM, Nicolas VIGNERON <
> ***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 2017-10-31 18:45 GMT+01:00 Andrea Zanni <***@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> For the "work" concept, Italian Wikisource decided to create a real and
>>> new namespace, "Opera" (which means work).
>>> It's the one page where we store the links to multiple editions of a
>>> certain book we have.
>>>
>>> It's not a disambiguation page in the sense that a disambiguation page
>>> works with different books from different authors with the same title
>>> e.g. "Poems"...
>>>
>>> Aubrey
>>>
>> I forgot about that too.
>> Aubrey; Could you tell us the advantage and inconvenient of this system
>> (and in comparison to the 'multiple editions' pages of the others
>> Wikisources).
>>
>> Cdlt, ~nicolas
>>
>> PS: this is the kind of question that would be interesting to have during
>> a hangout session like we had (I will write a separate mail to re-launch
>> them)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikisource-l mailing list
>> Wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>>
>>
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> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2017 07:54:23 +0800
> From: Sam Wilson <***@samwilson.id.au>
> To: wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] quickstatements for missing editions
> Message-ID:
> <***@webmail.messagingengine.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> And I guess that's independent of the actual titles of the editions? I
> mean, different editions could have different titles, but you'd still
> list them all on the same Opera page?
> So, if we were focusing only on pages that are not yet linked to
> Wikidata, for Italian it'd be easy in that anything in mainspace is an
> edition, is that right?
> Does Italian have a Category:Mainspace disambiguation pages (Q26961321)?
>
> On Wed, 1 Nov 2017, at 01:45 AM, Andrea Zanni wrote:
>> For the "work" concept, Italian Wikisource decided to create a real
>> and new namespace, "Opera" (which means work).> It's the one page where we store the links to multiple editions of a
>> certain book we have.>
>> It's not a disambiguation page in the sense that a disambiguation page
>> works with different books from different authors with the same title> e.g. "Poems"...
>> Aubrey
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Thomas Pellissier Tanon <***@pellissier-
>> tanon.fr> wrote:>> An other point: here is a link to your 'Wikidata project" on the
>>> french Wikisource. We plan to build here to document what we do
>>> around Wikisource&Wikidata:
>>> https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Projet_Wikidata>>
>>> Sorry for the spam,
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>>> Le 31 oct. 2017 à 16:14, Thomas Pellissier Tanon <***@pellissier-
>>>> tanon.fr> a écrit :>> >
>>>> Hello Sam,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for this nice feature!
>>>>
>>>> I have created a few months ago a prototype of Wikisource to
>>>> Wikidata importation tool for the French Wikisource based on the
>>>> schema.org annotation I have added to the main header template (I
>>>> definitely think we should move from our custom microformat to this
>>>> schema.org markup that could be much more structured). It's not yet
>>>> ready but I plan to move it forward in the coming weeks. A
>>>> beginning of frontend to add to your Wikidata common.js is here:
>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Tpt/ws2wd.js>> > We should probably find a way to merge the two projects.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>>> Le 31 oct. 2017 à 15:10, Nicolas VIGNERON
>>>>> <***@gmail.com> a écrit :>> >>
>>>>> 2017-10-31 13:16 GMT+01:00 Jane Darnell <***@gmail.com>:
>>>>> Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was
>>>>> referring to items like this one>> >> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
>>>>>
>>>>> No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this
>>>>> example is even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).>> >>
>>>>> For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and I'm
>>>>> not sure what this tools can even do for this).>> >>
>>>>> Cdlt, ~nicolas
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikisource-l mailing list
>>>>> Wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org
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Nicolas VIGNERON
2017-11-01 15:40:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
2017-11-01 15:44 GMT+01:00 helene78 <***@numericable.fr>:

> The more I read about it-ws Opera namespace, the more I'm interested in it.
>
> On frws we use "multiple editions" a lot, especially on poems and short
> stories, that have been published in different collections. Do you do that
> too ?
>
> Also, I had a fantasy, these past weeks, working about "work items" on
> wikidata, that we could point on wikisource "work" page, whether we have 1
> or multiple editions.
>
> Presently, when, for a poem, we have only 1 edition, we put it in its
> collection subpage, and keed the poem title as redirect, then transform it
> to "multiple editions" when we get some. This totally prevents to add those
> to wikidata, because redirects are not supported ; thus, editions are added
> to work items, by adding redirects.
>
> I was wondering whether adding a template similar to "redirect with
> possibility" (enwp) could help solve this problem.
>
> Wonder what solution would be best, considering that the creation of a
> full-developped "work-page" on a poem could be tricky...
>
> So, what do you think all of you ?
>
> HélÚne (frwikisource)
>

From afar, the Opera: pages on it.ws are very close to the pages with the
template {{Éditions}} on fr.ws or the template {{Versions}} on en.ws (and
similar system elsewhere).

The main difference is having a separate namespace A second major
difference is that the templates on fr.ws and en.ws are very light while
the {{Opera}} template took data from Wikidata (but that's an independent
problem, it's possible to change the {{Éditions}} or {{Versions}} templates
to do exactly the same thing without having a specific namespace).

I'm almost convinced too, but in order to create a new namespace on a
project you have to convinced the local community. That's why I'm still
playing the Devil's advocate role and want to learn about the inconvenients
of this system (for instance, since the name of the work is free to use,
does people often use it by mistake?).

Cdlt, ~nicolas
Anika Born
2017-11-02 07:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
2017-11-01 16:40 GMT+01:00 Nicolas VIGNERON <***@gmail.com>:

>
> From afar, the Opera: pages on it.ws are very close to the pages with the
> template {{Éditions}} on fr.ws or the template {{Versions}} on en.ws (and
> similar system elsewhere).
>
> The main difference is having a separate namespace A second major
> difference is that the templates on fr.ws and en.ws are very light while
> the {{Opera}} template took data from Wikidata (but that's an independent
> problem, it's possible to change the {{Éditions}} or {{Versions}} templates
> to do exactly the same thing without having a specific namespace).
>
> I'm almost convinced too, but in order to create a new namespace on a
> project you have to convinced the local community. That's why I'm still
> playing the Devil's advocate role and want to learn about the inconvenients
> of this system
>

A reason why there are no different namespaces for work-, edition-,
author-, list- and other portal pages in de.ws is the ws-search. When you
are looking for "Goethe" in the (simple) search (as readers may do) on WS,
you might get to
* https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Tafellied,_zu_Goethe%E2%80%99s_Geburtstage
but not to
* https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe
<https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe#Bibliographien>
with all the interesting stuff, if that page was in another namespace...

So there was the desition to use templates (and categories) for these
different kind of pages:
https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Seiten_zu_Autoren,_Texten,_Themen,_Listen

<https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Seiten_zu_Autoren,_Texten,_Themen,_Listen>
I think German Wikisource Community won't give this up and switch to using
multiple namespaces (besides Wikisource: and Page:namespace).

Best
Anika
billinghurst
2017-11-02 08:07:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Anika,

That is matter long resolved in my opinion with the change in the
default search namespaces that the communities made, and similarly with
our redefining content namespaces. While main namespace will always take
preference to the other nss in results, they show up pretty quickly
where you have an intitle: match.

At enWS I would say that we lost more searches to subpages, so with the
ability to change your search preferences with subphrase matches, much
of that is addressed (though it is not the default search configuration
at this point).

The completion suggester
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Extension:CirrusSearch/CompletionSuggester>
is an algorithm for search suggestions with better typo correction and
search relevance.
Default (recommended)
Corrects up to two typos. Resolves close redirects.
Subphrase matching (recommended for longer page titles)
Corrects up to two typos. Resolves close redirects. Matches subphrase in
titles.
Strict mode (advanced)
No typo correction. No accent folding. Strict matching.
Redirect mode (advanced)
No typo correction. Resolves close redirects.
Redirect mode with subphrase matching (advanced)
No typo correction. Resolves close redirects. Matches subphrase in
titles.

Regards, Billinghurst


------ Original Message ------
From: "Anika Born" <***@wikipedia.de>
To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free library"
<wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: 2/11/2017 6:37:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] wikisource "work" pages or "multiple
editions" pages

>2017-11-01 16:40 GMT+01:00 Nicolas VIGNERON
><***@gmail.com>:
>>
>>From afar, the Opera: pages on it.ws are very close to the pages with
>>the template {{Éditions}} on fr.ws or the template {{Versions}} on
>>en.ws (and similar system elsewhere).
>>
>>The main difference is having a separate namespace A second major
>>difference is that the templates on fr.ws and en.ws are very light
>>while the {{Opera}} template took data from Wikidata (but that's an
>>independent problem, it's possible to change the {{Éditions}} or
>>{{Versions}} templates to do exactly the same thing without having a
>>specific namespace).
>>
>>I'm almost convinced too, but in order to create a new namespace on a
>>project you have to convinced the local community. That's why I'm
>>still playing the Devil's advocate role and want to learn about the
>>inconvenients of this system
>
>A reason why there are no different namespaces for work-, edition-,
>author-, list- and other portal pages in de.ws is the ws-search. When
>you are looking for "Goethe" in the (simple) search (as readers may do)
>on WS, you might get to
>*
>https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Tafellied,_zu_Goethe%E2%80%99s_Geburtstage
>but not to
>* https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe
><https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe#Bibliographien>
>with all the interesting stuff, if that page was in another
>namespace...
>
>So there was the desition to use templates (and categories) for these
>different kind of pages:
>https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Seiten_zu_Autoren,_Texten,_Themen,_Listen
>
>I think German Wikisource Community won't give this up and switch to
>using multiple namespaces (besides Wikisource: and Page:namespace).
>
>Best
>Anika
Alex Brollo
2017-11-02 08:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"Short works" (i.e. a sonnet) are really a hard issue.
Just to remember two other issues:

1. IMHO translations are not works, the work being a unique "abstract" item
(Iliad)
2. sometimes the author reviewes it work and produces a substantially
different "derived" work (ie. Fermo e Lucia vs I Promessi sposi; different
revisions of Orlando Furioso). IMHO any of these should be considered
different works.

Alex



2017-11-02 9:07 GMT+01:00 billinghurst <***@gmail.com>:

> Anika,
>
> That is matter long resolved in my opinion with the change in the default
> search namespaces that the communities made, and similarly with our
> redefining content namespaces. While main namespace will always take
> preference to the other nss in results, they show up pretty quickly where
> you have an intitle: match.
>
> At enWS I would say that we lost more searches to subpages, so with the
> ability to change your search preferences with subphrase matches, much of
> that is addressed (though it is not the default search configuration at
> this point).
>
> The completion suggester
> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Extension:CirrusSearch/CompletionSuggester>
> is an algorithm for search suggestions with better typo correction and
> search relevance.
> Default (recommended)
> Corrects up to two typos. Resolves close redirects.
> Subphrase matching (recommended for longer page titles)
> Corrects up to two typos. Resolves close redirects. Matches subphrase in
> titles.
> Strict mode (advanced)
> No typo correction. No accent folding. Strict matching.
> Redirect mode (advanced)
> No typo correction. Resolves close redirects.
> Redirect mode with subphrase matching (advanced)
> No typo correction. Resolves close redirects. Matches subphrase in titles.
>
> Regards, Billinghurst
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Anika Born" <***@wikipedia.de>
> To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free library" <
> wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: 2/11/2017 6:37:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] wikisource "work" pages or "multiple editions"
> pages
>
> 2017-11-01 16:40 GMT+01:00 Nicolas VIGNERON <***@gmail.com>:
>
>>
>> From afar, the Opera: pages on it.ws are very close to the pages with
>> the template {{Éditions}} on fr.ws or the template {{Versions}} on en.ws
>> (and similar system elsewhere).
>>
>> The main difference is having a separate namespace A second major
>> difference is that the templates on fr.ws and en.ws are very light while
>> the {{Opera}} template took data from Wikidata (but that's an independent
>> problem, it's possible to change the {{Éditions}} or {{Versions}} templates
>> to do exactly the same thing without having a specific namespace).
>>
>> I'm almost convinced too, but in order to create a new namespace on a
>> project you have to convinced the local community. That's why I'm still
>> playing the Devil's advocate role and want to learn about the inconvenients
>> of this system
>>
>
> A reason why there are no different namespaces for work-, edition-,
> author-, list- and other portal pages in de.ws is the ws-search. When you
> are looking for "Goethe" in the (simple) search (as readers may do) on WS,
> you might get to
> * https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Tafellied,_zu_Goethe%E2%
> 80%99s_Geburtstage but not to
> * https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe
> <https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe#Bibliographien>
> with all the interesting stuff, if that page was in another namespace...
>
> So there was the desition to use templates (and categories) for these
> different kind of pages: https://de.wikisource.org/
> wiki/Wikisource:Seiten_zu_Autoren,_Texten,_Themen,_Listen
>
>
> <https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Seiten_zu_Autoren,_Texten,_Themen,_Listen>
> I think German Wikisource Community won't give this up and switch to using
> multiple namespaces (besides Wikisource: and Page:namespace).
>
> Best
> Anika
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikisource-l mailing list
> Wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>
>
Anika Born
2017-11-02 09:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Billinghurst,

That might work for me, with a Login.

But does this also work for random readers, who don't have a login? Who
don't know, that there are preferences (and especially what can be done
with them?)

But more important: please don't (just) focus in namespaces for every
Wikisource-Project. You might loose at least de.WS. I can't see changing
something, that works fine for this project... Especially not to change a
system, that is quite different, from what they have now. That is all I am
asking for. de.ws is working with templates to differ, not with namespaces.

for instance Johann Wolfgang von Goethe:
<https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe#Bibliographien>

Goethe was an author, but there are also works about Goethe. In de.ws
portal-page and author-page about Geothe are merged in one. There is no
difference. Don't expect something else.

Best, Anika

2017-11-02 9:07 GMT+01:00 billinghurst <***@gmail.com>:

> Anika,
>
> That is matter long resolved in my opinion with the change in the default
> search namespaces that the communities made, and similarly with our
> redefining content namespaces. While main namespace will always take
> preference to the other nss in results, they show up pretty quickly where
> you have an intitle: match.
>
> At enWS I would say that we lost more searches to subpages, so with the
> ability to change your search preferences with subphrase matches, much of
> that is addressed (though it is not the default search configuration at
> this point).
>
> The completion suggester
> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Extension:CirrusSearch/CompletionSuggester>
> is an algorithm for search suggestions with better typo correction and
> search relevance.
> Default (recommended)
> Corrects up to two typos. Resolves close redirects.
> Subphrase matching (recommended for longer page titles)
> Corrects up to two typos. Resolves close redirects. Matches subphrase in
> titles.
> Strict mode (advanced)
> No typo correction. No accent folding. Strict matching.
> Redirect mode (advanced)
> No typo correction. Resolves close redirects.
> Redirect mode with subphrase matching (advanced)
> No typo correction. Resolves close redirects. Matches subphrase in titles.
>
> Regards, Billinghurst
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Anika Born" <***@wikipedia.de>
> To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free library" <
> wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: 2/11/2017 6:37:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] wikisource "work" pages or "multiple editions"
> pages
>
> 2017-11-01 16:40 GMT+01:00 Nicolas VIGNERON <***@gmail.com>:
>
>>
>> From afar, the Opera: pages on it.ws are very close to the pages with
>> the template {{Éditions}} on fr.ws or the template {{Versions}} on en.ws
>> (and similar system elsewhere).
>>
>> The main difference is having a separate namespace A second major
>> difference is that the templates on fr.ws and en.ws are very light while
>> the {{Opera}} template took data from Wikidata (but that's an independent
>> problem, it's possible to change the {{Éditions}} or {{Versions}} templates
>> to do exactly the same thing without having a specific namespace).
>>
>> I'm almost convinced too, but in order to create a new namespace on a
>> project you have to convinced the local community. That's why I'm still
>> playing the Devil's advocate role and want to learn about the inconvenients
>> of this system
>>
>
> A reason why there are no different namespaces for work-, edition-,
> author-, list- and other portal pages in de.ws is the ws-search. When you
> are looking for "Goethe" in the (simple) search (as readers may do) on WS,
> you might get to
> * https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Tafellied,_zu_Goethe%E2%
> 80%99s_Geburtstage but not to
> * https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe
> <https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe#Bibliographien>
> with all the interesting stuff, if that page was in another namespace...
>
> So there was the desition to use templates (and categories) for these
> different kind of pages: https://de.wikisource.org/
> wiki/Wikisource:Seiten_zu_Autoren,_Texten,_Themen,_Listen
>
>
> <https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Seiten_zu_Autoren,_Texten,_Themen,_Listen>
> I think German Wikisource Community won't give this up and switch to using
> multiple namespaces (besides Wikisource: and Page:namespace).
>
> Best
> Anika
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikisource-l mailing list
> Wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>
>
Sam Wilson
2017-11-02 09:30:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I must admit, I'm not a huge fan of multiple namespaces in wikis.
They're mostly not necessary! :-) (Don't worry, I'm not suggesting
getting rid of any either.)
And certainly, from the point of view of integrating Wikidata and moving
towards better metadata and searchability, I don't think we need all
Wikisources to unify on any particular set of namespaces. I think any
future metadata system must just work with all the different current set-
ups (and I think it can, quite well).
—Sam.

On Thu, 2 Nov 2017, at 05:21 PM, Anika Born wrote:
> Billinghurst,
>
> That might work for me, with a Login.
>
> But does this also work for random readers, who don't have a login?
> Who don't know, that there are preferences (and especially what can be
> done with them?)>
> But more important: please don't (just) focus in namespaces for every
> Wikisource-Project. You might loose at least de.WS. I can't see
> changing something, that works fine for this project... Especially
> not to change a system, that is quite different, from what they have
> now. That is all I am asking for. de.ws is working with templates to
> differ, not with namespaces.>
> for instance Johann Wolfgang von Goethe: [1]
>
> Goethe was an author, but there are also works about Goethe. In de.ws
> portal-page and author-page about Geothe are merged in one. There is
> no difference. Don't expect something else.>
> Best, Anika
>
> 2017-11-02 9:07 GMT+01:00 billinghurst <***@gmail.com>:
>> __
>> Anika,
>>
>> That is matter long resolved in my opinion with the change in the
>> default search namespaces that the communities made, and similarly
>> with our redefining content namespaces. While main namespace will
>> always take preference to the other nss in results, they show up
>> pretty quickly where you have an intitle: match.>>
>> At enWS I would say that we lost more searches to subpages, so with
>> the ability to change your search preferences with subphrase matches,
>> much of that is addressed (though it is not the default search
>> configuration at this point).>>
>> The completion suggester[2] is an algorithm for search suggestions
>> with better typo correction and search relevance.>>
>> Default (recommended)
>> Corrects up to two typos. Resolves close redirects.
>>
>> Subphrase matching (recommended for longer page titles)
>> Corrects up to two typos. Resolves close redirects. Matches subphrase
>> in titles.>>
>> Strict mode (advanced)
>> No typo correction. No accent folding. Strict matching.
>>
>> Redirect mode (advanced)
>> No typo correction. Resolves close redirects.
>>
>> Redirect mode with subphrase matching (advanced)
>> No typo correction. Resolves close redirects. Matches subphrase in
>> titles.>>
>> Regards, Billinghurst
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "Anika Born" <***@wikipedia.de>
>> To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free library" <wikisource-
>> ***@lists.wikimedia.org>>>
>> Sent: 2/11/2017 6:37:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] wikisource "work" pages or "multiple
>> editions" pages>>
>>> 2017-11-01 16:40 GMT+01:00 Nicolas VIGNERON
>>> <***@gmail.com>:>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From afar, the Opera: pages on it.ws are very close to the pages
>>>> with the template {{Éditions}} on fr.ws or the template
>>>> {{Versions}} on en.ws (and similar system elsewhere).>>>>
>>>> The main difference is having a separate namespace A second major
>>>> difference is that the templates on fr.ws and en.ws are very light
>>>> while the {{Opera}} template took data from Wikidata (but that's an
>>>> independent problem, it's possible to change the {{Éditions}} or
>>>> {{Versions}} templates to do exactly the same thing without having
>>>> a specific namespace).>>>>
>>>> I'm almost convinced too, but in order to create a new namespace on
>>>> a project you have to convinced the local community. That's why I'm
>>>> still playing the Devil's advocate role and want to learn about the
>>>> inconvenients of this system>>>
>>> A reason why there are no different namespaces for work-, edition-,
>>> author-, list- and other portal pages in de.ws is the ws-search.
>>> When you are looking for "Goethe" in the (simple) search (as readers
>>> may do) on WS, you might get to>>> * https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Tafellied,_zu_Goethe%E2%80%99s_Geburtstage
>>> but not to>>> * https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe[3] with
>>> all the interesting stuff, if that page was in another
>>> namespace...>>>
>>> So there was the desition to use templates (and categories) for
>>> these different kind of pages:
>>> https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Seiten_zu_Autoren,_Texten,_Themen,_Listen>>>
>>> I think German Wikisource Community won't give this up and switch to
>>> using multiple namespaces (besides Wikisource: and Page:namespace).>>>
>>> Best
>>> Anika
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikisource-l mailing list
>> Wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>>
> _________________________________________________
> Wikisource-l mailing list
> Wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l


Links:

1. https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe#Bibliographien
2. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Extension:CirrusSearch/CompletionSuggester
3. https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe#Bibliographien
Alex Brollo
2017-11-02 10:44:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Consider too the possibility of using a "pseudo-namespace", while testing
the stuff it source used a prefix "Opera": for ns0 pages devoided to
"works" with few drawback (and the big advantage to make things clear)

Alex



2017-11-02 10:30 GMT+01:00 Sam Wilson <***@samwilson.id.au>:

> I must admit, I'm not a huge fan of multiple namespaces in wikis. They're
> mostly not necessary! :-) (Don't worry, I'm not suggesting getting rid of
> any either.)
>
> And certainly, from the point of view of integrating Wikidata and moving
> towards better metadata and searchability, I don't think we need all
> Wikisources to unify on any particular set of namespaces. I think any
> future metadata system must just work with all the different current
> set-ups (and I think it can, quite well).
>
> —Sam.
>
> On Thu, 2 Nov 2017, at 05:21 PM, Anika Born wrote:
>
> Billinghurst,
>
> That might work for me, with a Login.
>
> But does this also work for random readers, who don't have a login? Who
> don't know, that there are preferences (and especially what can be done
> with them?)
>
> But more important: please don't (just) focus in namespaces for every
> Wikisource-Project. You might loose at least de.WS. I can't see changing
> something, that works fine for this project... Especially not to change a
> system, that is quite different, from what they have now. That is all I am
> asking for. de.ws is working with templates to differ, not with
> namespaces.
>
> for instance Johann Wolfgang von Goethe:
> <https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe#Bibliographien>
>
> Goethe was an author, but there are also works about Goethe. In de.ws
> portal-page and author-page about Geothe are merged in one. There is no
> difference. Don't expect something else.
>
> Best, Anika
>
> 2017-11-02 9:07 GMT+01:00 billinghurst <***@gmail.com>:
>
>
> Anika,
>
> That is matter long resolved in my opinion with the change in the default
> search namespaces that the communities made, and similarly with our
> redefining content namespaces. While main namespace will always take
> preference to the other nss in results, they show up pretty quickly where
> you have an intitle: match.
>
> At enWS I would say that we lost more searches to subpages, so with the
> ability to change your search preferences with subphrase matches, much of
> that is addressed (though it is not the default search configuration at
> this point).
>
> The completion suggester
> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Extension:CirrusSearch/CompletionSuggester>
> is an algorithm for search suggestions with better typo correction and
> search relevance.
>
> Default (recommended)
> Corrects up to two typos. Resolves close redirects.
>
> Subphrase matching (recommended for longer page titles)
> Corrects up to two typos. Resolves close redirects. Matches subphrase in
> titles.
>
> Strict mode (advanced)
> No typo correction. No accent folding. Strict matching.
>
> Redirect mode (advanced)
> No typo correction. Resolves close redirects.
>
> Redirect mode with subphrase matching (advanced)
> No typo correction. Resolves close redirects. Matches subphrase in titles.
>
> Regards, Billinghurst
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Anika Born" <***@wikipedia.de>
> To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free library" <
> wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org>
>
> Sent: 2/11/2017 6:37:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] wikisource "work" pages or "multiple editions"
> pages
>
> 2017-11-01 16:40 GMT+01:00 Nicolas VIGNERON <***@gmail.com>:
>
>
>
>
> From afar, the Opera: pages on it.ws are very close to the pages with the
> template {{Éditions}} on fr.ws or the template {{Versions}} on en.ws (and
> similar system elsewhere).
>
> The main difference is having a separate namespace A second major
> difference is that the templates on fr.ws and en.ws are very light while
> the {{Opera}} template took data from Wikidata (but that's an independent
> problem, it's possible to change the {{Éditions}} or {{Versions}} templates
> to do exactly the same thing without having a specific namespace).
>
> I'm almost convinced too, but in order to create a new namespace on a
> project you have to convinced the local community. That's why I'm still
> playing the Devil's advocate role and want to learn about the inconvenients
> of this system
>
>
> A reason why there are no different namespaces for work-, edition-,
> author-, list- and other portal pages in de.ws is the ws-search. When you
> are looking for "Goethe" in the (simple) search (as readers may do) on WS,
> you might get to
> * https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Tafellied,_zu_Goethe%E2%80%
> 99s_Geburtstage but not to
> * https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe
> <https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe#Bibliographien>
> with all the interesting stuff, if that page was in another namespace...
>
> So there was the desition to use templates (and categories) for these
> different kind of pages: https://de.wikisource.org/wiki
> /Wikisource:Seiten_zu_Autoren,_Texten,_Themen,_Listen
>
> <https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Seiten_zu_Autoren,_Texten,_Themen,_Listen>
> I think German Wikisource Community won't give this up and switch to using
> multiple namespaces (besides Wikisource: and Page:namespace).
>
> Best
> Anika
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikisource-l mailing list
> Wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>
> *_______________________________________________*
> Wikisource-l mailing list
> Wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikisource-l mailing list
> Wikisource-***@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>
>
Andrea Zanni
2017-11-02 11:34:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
>
> for instance Johann Wolfgang von Goethe:
> <https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe#Bibliographien>
>
> Goethe was an author, but there are also works about Goethe. In de.ws
> portal-page and author-page about Geothe are merged in one. There is no
> difference. Don't expect something else.
>

Well, that's something that every Wikisource cando: adding books *about* an
author in his Author page. It.ws does this too.

BTW, Italian Wikisource decided for a Opera namespace because we just find
it very useful to differentiate with "normal" books in ns0. It's just more
clear for us, especially regarding Wikidata integration.
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