Discussion:
quickstatements for missing editions
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Sam Wilson
2017-10-31 04:21:15 UTC
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I've just been experimenting with adding a quick-statements generator to
https://tools.wmflabs.org/ws-search — search for something, with 'linked
to wikidata = no', and then each row of the results has a popup with
code you can copy and paste into quickstatements.

I don't know if that sort of thing is useful. It's not working with many
fields yet, but I'm finding it faster than entering the basics manually.

—sam.
Nicolas VIGNERON
2017-10-31 08:04:01 UTC
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Post by Sam Wilson
I've just been experimenting with adding a quick-statements generator to
https://tools.wmflabs.org/ws-search — search for something, with 'linked
to wikidata = no', and then each row of the results has a popup with
code you can copy and paste into quickstatements.
I don't know if that sort of thing is useful. It's not working with many
fields yet, but I'm finding it faster than entering the basics manually.
—sam.
Interesting.

It's a good start but I see a lot of things that need heavy improvements. I
tried for br and fr Wikisources.

Most importantly not everything on Wikisource is an edition (there is
disambig page and editions pages, for instance fr:s:Accroupissements a a
work not an edition, it should detect that and change the P31 accordingly)
Then the description is put on « Dfr "edition of Accroupissements by ,
Arthur Rimbaud" », it should be Den not Dfr, there shouldn't be a comma
here, and ideally we should add description in multiple languages (maybe
with an external bot ?).
Some others data could probably easily be added (P996
<https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P996> and P1957
<https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1957> at least and maybe P1476
<https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1476> too)

But this has the potential to be a very good tool!

Cdlt, ~nicolas
Sam Wilson
2017-10-31 08:35:38 UTC
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Post by Nicolas VIGNERON
Post by Sam Wilson
I've just been experimenting with adding a quick-statements generator to
https://tools.wmflabs.org/ws-search — search for something, with 'linked
to wikidata = no', and then each row of the results has a popup with
code you can copy and paste into quickstatements.
I don't know if that sort of thing is useful. It's not working with many
fields yet, but I'm finding it faster than entering the basics manually.
—sam.
Interesting.
It's a good start but I see a lot of things that need heavy improvements. I tried for br and fr Wikisources.
Most importantly not everything on Wikisource is an edition (there is disambig page and editions pages, for instance fr:s:Accroupissements a a work not an edition, it should detect that and change the P31 accordingly)
Then the description is put on « Dfr "edition of Accroupissements by , Arthur Rimbaud" », it should be Den not Dfr, there shouldn't be a comma here, and ideally we should add description in multiple languages (maybe with an external bot ?).
Some others data could probably easily be added (P996[https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P996] and P1957[https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1957] at least and maybe P1476[https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1476] too)
Yes it's certainly a first draft!! :-) Thanks for trying it out.

With the disambig pages, can you suggest how to detect them?

Ah, there's a couple of other bugs here:

The page https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Accroupissements actually
already has a WIkidata ID, but the ws-search database didn't know about
it :-( probably because it was failing for a while on some weird
problems. I've re-run the scraper, and now that work is showing up with
it's proper Q-number:
https://tools.wmflabs.org/ws-search/?title=Accroupissements&author=&lang=fr

The idea with the quickstatements is that it'll only show it for works
that are *not yet* linked to wikidata. This is where the disambig
problem comes in, because there doesn't seem to be a simple way to
determine what's an edition and what's a work without resorting to
Wikidata. We could look at categories? Is it a truth universally
acknowledged that pages in the categories defined as
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q15939659 are all disambiguation pages?
That could work...

:-) Thanks again! I'll fix up the i18n stuff. The tool isn't doing
anything at all yet, but I could register it on translatewiki if it's
thought to be useful enough?

—sam
Nicolas VIGNERON
2017-10-31 08:46:53 UTC
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Post by Sam Wilson
Yes it's certainly a first draft!! :-) Thanks for trying it out.
With the disambig pages, can you suggest how to detect them?
Not sure.
Could you detect the presence of the Q6148868 templates ? (and same thing
for Q15701815 ).
Or else maybe with the categories.
Post by Sam Wilson
The page https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Accroupissements actually
already has a WIkidata ID, but the ws-search database didn't know about
it :-( probably because it was failing for a while on some weird
problems. I've re-run the scraper, and now that work is showing up with
https://tools.wmflabs.org/ws-search/?title=Accroupissements&author=&lang=
fr
The idea with the quickstatements is that it'll only show it for works
that are *not yet* linked to wikidata. This is where the disambig
problem comes in, because there doesn't seem to be a simple way to
determine what's an edition and what's a work without resorting to
Wikidata. We could look at categories? Is it a truth universally
acknowledged that pages in the categories defined as
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q15939659 are all disambiguation pages?
That could work...
The truth (and I guess it is universal but could someone confirm?) is that
pages with 'multiples editions' are 'works' (Q571, this is what I do for
fr.wikisource at least).

Thank you for all the work!

Cdlt, ~nicolas
Jane Darnell
2017-10-31 09:00:13 UTC
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We want the disambiguation pages on Wikisource - I checked a few of these
and there are a lot of women and "younger sons" in them that we want. Also,
many can be connected to existing "family of ..." pages or name
disambiguation pages - they definitely help enrich our understanding of the
problems of disambiguation over time.

On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Nicolas VIGNERON <
Post by Sam Wilson
Yes it's certainly a first draft!! :-) Thanks for trying it out.
Post by Sam Wilson
With the disambig pages, can you suggest how to detect them?
Not sure.
Could you detect the presence of the Q6148868 templates ? (and same thing
for Q15701815 ).
Or else maybe with the categories.
Post by Sam Wilson
The page https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Accroupissements actually
already has a WIkidata ID, but the ws-search database didn't know about
it :-( probably because it was failing for a while on some weird
problems. I've re-run the scraper, and now that work is showing up with
https://tools.wmflabs.org/ws-search/?title=Accroupissements&
author=&lang=fr
The idea with the quickstatements is that it'll only show it for works
that are *not yet* linked to wikidata. This is where the disambig
problem comes in, because there doesn't seem to be a simple way to
determine what's an edition and what's a work without resorting to
Wikidata. We could look at categories? Is it a truth universally
acknowledged that pages in the categories defined as
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q15939659 are all disambiguation pages?
That could work...
The truth (and I guess it is universal but could someone confirm?) is that
pages with 'multiples editions' are 'works' (Q571, this is what I do for
fr.wikisource at least).
Thank you for all the work!
Cdlt, ~nicolas
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Nicolas VIGNERON
2017-10-31 09:48:23 UTC
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Post by Jane Darnell
We want the disambiguation pages on Wikisource - I checked a few of these
and there are a lot of women and "younger sons" in them that we want. Also,
many can be connected to existing "family of ..." pages or name
disambiguation pages - they definitely help enrich our understanding of the
problems of disambiguation over time.
I'm guessing you're talking about pages in
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Category:Author_disambiguation_pages (which
only exist on en.ws) but they are in the Author: namespace and (if Im' not
mistaken) the WS search tool here only look in the main namespace (as it's
focused on editions).

So this is a bit besides this mail thread but still, you are very right,
for people in particular and for everything in general, disambig pages are
indeed important and ideally the tool should not just discard them as 'not
edition' (if technically possible to spot them obviously).

Cdlt, ~nicolas
Jane Darnell
2017-10-31 12:16:43 UTC
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Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was referring
to items like this one
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368

On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Nicolas VIGNERON <
Post by Jane Darnell
We want the disambiguation pages on Wikisource - I checked a few of these
and there are a lot of women and "younger sons" in them that we want. Also,
many can be connected to existing "family of ..." pages or name
disambiguation pages - they definitely help enrich our understanding of the
problems of disambiguation over time.
I'm guessing you're talking about pages in https://en.wikisource.org/
wiki/Category:Author_disambiguation_pages (which only exist on en.ws) but
they are in the Author: namespace and (if Im' not mistaken) the WS search
tool here only look in the main namespace (as it's focused on editions).
So this is a bit besides this mail thread but still, you are very right,
for people in particular and for everything in general, disambig pages are
indeed important and ideally the tool should not just discard them as 'not
edition' (if technically possible to spot them obviously).
Cdlt, ~nicolas
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Nicolas VIGNERON
2017-10-31 14:10:20 UTC
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Post by Jane Darnell
Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was referring
to items like this one
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this example is
even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).

For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and I'm not sure
what this tools can even do for this).

Cdlt, ~nicolas
Thomas Pellissier Tanon
2017-10-31 15:14:23 UTC
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Hello Sam,

Thank you for this nice feature!

I have created a few months ago a prototype of Wikisource to Wikidata importation tool for the French Wikisource based on the schema.org annotation I have added to the main header template (I definitely think we should move from our custom microformat to this schema.org markup that could be much more structured). It's not yet ready but I plan to move it forward in the coming weeks. A beginning of frontend to add to your Wikidata common.js is here: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Tpt/ws2wd.js
We should probably find a way to merge the two projects.

Cheers,

Thomas
Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was referring to items like this one
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this example is even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).
For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and I'm not sure what this tools can even do for this).
Cdlt, ~nicolas
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
Thomas Pellissier Tanon
2017-10-31 15:17:39 UTC
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An other point: here is a link to your 'Wikidata project" on the french Wikisource. We plan to build here to document what we do around Wikisource&Wikidata: https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Projet_Wikidata

Sorry for the spam,

Cheers,

Thomas
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Hello Sam,
Thank you for this nice feature!
I have created a few months ago a prototype of Wikisource to Wikidata importation tool for the French Wikisource based on the schema.org annotation I have added to the main header template (I definitely think we should move from our custom microformat to this schema.org markup that could be much more structured). It's not yet ready but I plan to move it forward in the coming weeks. A beginning of frontend to add to your Wikidata common.js is here: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Tpt/ws2wd.js
We should probably find a way to merge the two projects.
Cheers,
Thomas
Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was referring to items like this one
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this example is even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).
For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and I'm not sure what this tools can even do for this).
Cdlt, ~nicolas
_______________________________________________
Wikisource-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
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Andrea Zanni
2017-10-31 17:45:05 UTC
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For the "work" concept, Italian Wikisource decided to create a real and new
namespace, "Opera" (which means work).
It's the one page where we store the links to multiple editions of a
certain book we have.

It's not a disambiguation page in the sense that a disambiguation page
works with different books from different authors with the same title
e.g. "Poems"...

Aubrey

On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Thomas Pellissier Tanon <
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
An other point: here is a link to your 'Wikidata project" on the french
Wikisource. We plan to build here to document what we do around
Wikisource&Wikidata: https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Projet_
Wikidata
Sorry for the spam,
Cheers,
Thomas
Le 31 oct. 2017 à 16:14, Thomas Pellissier Tanon <
Hello Sam,
Thank you for this nice feature!
I have created a few months ago a prototype of Wikisource to Wikidata
importation tool for the French Wikisource based on the schema.org
annotation I have added to the main header template (I definitely think we
should move from our custom microformat to this schema.org markup that
could be much more structured). It's not yet ready but I plan to move it
forward in the coming weeks. A beginning of frontend to add to your
Wikidata common.js is here: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/
User:Tpt/ws2wd.js
We should probably find a way to merge the two projects.
Cheers,
Thomas
Post by Jane Darnell
Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was
referring to items like this one
Post by Jane Darnell
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this example
is even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).
Post by Jane Darnell
For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and I'm not
sure what this tools can even do for this).
Post by Jane Darnell
Cdlt, ~nicolas
_______________________________________________
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
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Nicolas VIGNERON
2017-10-31 18:46:06 UTC
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Post by Andrea Zanni
For the "work" concept, Italian Wikisource decided to create a real and
new namespace, "Opera" (which means work).
It's the one page where we store the links to multiple editions of a
certain book we have.
It's not a disambiguation page in the sense that a disambiguation page
works with different books from different authors with the same title
e.g. "Poems"...
Aubrey
I forgot about that too.
Aubrey; Could you tell us the advantage and inconvenient of this system
(and in comparison to the 'multiple editions' pages of the others
Wikisources).

Cdlt, ~nicolas

PS: this is the kind of question that would be interesting to have during a
hangout session like we had (I will write a separate mail to re-launch them)
Andrea Zanni
2017-10-31 21:27:46 UTC
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From a Wikidata point of view, it's really good to have one dedicated page
ofr the "work" and different ones for the "editions": you can structure
both Wikisource and Wikidata with a clear structure, without ambiguities.

This is an example of a Wikisource Work page:
https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Opera:Filocolo

These are very important books that have had different editions in the
past, and a dedicated namespace is good so you can have
* dedicated templates
* dedicated categories
* dedicated layout

A disambiguation page is in ns0, and it's conceptually different from a
"multiple edition" page... So in this way is easy to tell the difference.



On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 7:46 PM, Nicolas VIGNERON <
Post by Nicolas VIGNERON
Post by Andrea Zanni
For the "work" concept, Italian Wikisource decided to create a real and
new namespace, "Opera" (which means work).
It's the one page where we store the links to multiple editions of a
certain book we have.
It's not a disambiguation page in the sense that a disambiguation page
works with different books from different authors with the same title
e.g. "Poems"...
Aubrey
I forgot about that too.
Aubrey; Could you tell us the advantage and inconvenient of this system
(and in comparison to the 'multiple editions' pages of the others
Wikisources).
Cdlt, ~nicolas
PS: this is the kind of question that would be interesting to have during
a hangout session like we had (I will write a separate mail to re-launch
them)
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Sam Wilson
2017-10-31 23:54:23 UTC
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And I guess that's independent of the actual titles of the editions? I
mean, different editions could have different titles, but you'd still
list them all on the same Opera page?
So, if we were focusing only on pages that are not yet linked to
Wikidata, for Italian it'd be easy in that anything in mainspace is an
edition, is that right?
Does Italian have a Category:Mainspace disambiguation pages (Q26961321)?
Post by Andrea Zanni
For the "work" concept, Italian Wikisource decided to create a real
and new namespace, "Opera" (which means work).> It's the one page where we store the links to multiple editions of a
certain book we have.>
It's not a disambiguation page in the sense that a disambiguation page
works with different books from different authors with the same title> e.g. "Poems"...
Aubrey
tanon.fr> wrote:>> An other point: here is a link to your 'Wikidata project" on the
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
french Wikisource. We plan to build here to document what we do
https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Projet_Wikidata>>
Sorry for the spam,
Cheers,
Thomas
tanon.fr> a écrit :>> >
Hello Sam,
Thank you for this nice feature!
I have created a few months ago a prototype of Wikisource to
Wikidata importation tool for the French Wikisource based on the
schema.org annotation I have added to the main header template (I
definitely think we should move from our custom microformat to this
schema.org markup that could be much more structured). It's not yet
ready but I plan to move it forward in the coming weeks. A
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Tpt/ws2wd.js>> > We should probably find a way to merge the two projects.
Cheers,
Thomas
Le 31 oct. 2017 à 15:10, Nicolas VIGNERON
Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was
referring to items like this one>> >> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this
example is even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).>> >>
For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and I'm
not sure what this tools can even do for this).>> >>
Cdlt, ~nicolas
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Sam Wilson
2017-11-01 00:00:20 UTC
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Yes I think you're definitely right! The easier way to send Wikisource
data to Wikidata is going to be a clever gadget that reads the
microformat or schema'd info in each page. My hack was just a quick and
easy test at getting some things added. :)

Ultimately, I'm actually not that excited about working on the tools
that we need to transfer the data. No no I don't mean that! Well, just
that the end point we're aiming at is that a bunch of info *won't be* at
all in Wikisource, but will be pulled from Wikidata, and so I am much
more interested in making better tools for working with the data in
Wikidata. :-) If you see what I mean.

My idea with ws-search is that it will progressively pull more and more
data from Wikidata, and only resort to HTML scraping where the data is
missing from Wikidata. I'm attempting to encapsulate this logic in the
`wikisource/api` PHP library.
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Hello Sam,
Thank you for this nice feature!
I have created a few months ago a prototype of Wikisource to Wikidata
importation tool for the French Wikisource based on the schema.org
annotation I have added to the main header template (I definitely think
we should move from our custom microformat to this schema.org markup that
could be much more structured). It's not yet ready but I plan to move it
forward in the coming weeks. A beginning of frontend to add to your
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Tpt/ws2wd.js
We should probably find a way to merge the two projects.
Cheers,
Thomas
Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was referring to items like this one
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this example is even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).
For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and I'm not sure what this tools can even do for this).
Cdlt, ~nicolas
_______________________________________________
Wikisource-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
_______________________________________________
Wikisource-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
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Andrea Zanni
2017-11-01 08:03:44 UTC
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@Sam, Tpt,
my personal experience is too that HTML is the way to pull out the
Wikisource important metadata,
but it's also that every Wikisource has sort of a different way to show
them,
meaning that you need to tweak your scraper for each Wikisource.
Is that still true? Last time I did it was more than one year ago, but I
need to try it again soon.

Aubrey
Post by Sam Wilson
Yes I think you're definitely right! The easier way to send Wikisource
data to Wikidata is going to be a clever gadget that reads the
microformat or schema'd info in each page. My hack was just a quick and
easy test at getting some things added. :)
Ultimately, I'm actually not that excited about working on the tools
that we need to transfer the data. No no I don't mean that! Well, just
that the end point we're aiming at is that a bunch of info *won't be* at
all in Wikisource, but will be pulled from Wikidata, and so I am much
more interested in making better tools for working with the data in
Wikidata. :-) If you see what I mean.
My idea with ws-search is that it will progressively pull more and more
data from Wikidata, and only resort to HTML scraping where the data is
missing from Wikidata. I'm attempting to encapsulate this logic in the
`wikisource/api` PHP library.
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Hello Sam,
Thank you for this nice feature!
I have created a few months ago a prototype of Wikisource to Wikidata
importation tool for the French Wikisource based on the schema.org
annotation I have added to the main header template (I definitely think
we should move from our custom microformat to this schema.org markup
that
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
could be much more structured). It's not yet ready but I plan to move it
forward in the coming weeks. A beginning of frontend to add to your
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Tpt/ws2wd.js
We should probably find a way to merge the two projects.
Cheers,
Thomas
Post by Jane Darnell
Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was
referring to items like this one
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Post by Jane Darnell
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this example
is even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Post by Jane Darnell
For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and I'm not
sure what this tools can even do for this).
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Post by Jane Darnell
Cdlt, ~nicolas
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Sam Wilson
2017-11-01 09:01:49 UTC
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Yup, still true. We do at least have a common goal of structured HTML,
as defined by http://schema.org/CreativeWork
It sounds like Tpt's scraper will do wonders, if a Wikisource just
complies to that. I think that's one of the next steps we need to take.
I sort of figure from the English Wikisource point of view that we
should do more on bringing data *in* from Wikidata, in our {{header}},
rather than working on making it easier to extract data *out* with microformats/structured-
HTML. Well, we should do both, of course! :-) But my feeling from the
process of getting Author data in from Wikidata is that the whole
Wikidata integration becomes so much more worthwhile and clearer (and we
sort out the various edge cases) when we're actively using it for real.
But of course, each Wikisource is in a similar position. :-( And are we
to all be developing the Lua scripts and templates in isolation? Indeed
no! :-) We shall put them all toegther in our brave new Wikisource
extension! :)
—sam
Post by Andrea Zanni
@Sam, Tpt,
my personal experience is too that HTML is the way to pull out the
Wikisource important metadata,> but it's also that every Wikisource has sort of a different way to
show them,> meaning that you need to tweak your scraper for each Wikisource.
Is that still true? Last time I did it was more than one year ago, but
I need to try it again soon.> Aubrey
On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 1:00 AM, Sam Wilson
Wikisource>> data to Wikidata is going to be a clever gadget that reads the
microformat or schema'd info in each page. My hack was just a
quick and>> easy test at getting some things added. :)
Ultimately, I'm actually not that excited about working on the tools>> that we need to transfer the data. No no I don't mean that!
Well, just>> that the end point we're aiming at is that a bunch of info *won't
be* at>> all in Wikisource, but will be pulled from Wikidata, and so I
am much>> more interested in making better tools for working with the data in>> Wikidata. :-) If you see what I mean.
My idea with ws-search is that it will progressively pull more
and more>> data from Wikidata, and only resort to HTML scraping where the
data is>> missing from Wikidata. I'm attempting to encapsulate this logic
in the>> `wikisource/api` PHP library.
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Hello Sam,
Thank you for this nice feature!
I have created a few months ago a prototype of Wikisource to
Wikidata>> > importation tool for the French Wikisource based on the schema.org>> > annotation I have added to the main header template (I definitely
think>> > we should move from our custom microformat to this schema.org
markup that>> > could be much more structured). It's not yet ready but I plan to
move it>> > forward in the coming weeks. A beginning of frontend to add to
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Tpt/ws2wd.js
We should probably find a way to merge the two projects.
Cheers,
Thomas
Le 31 oct. 2017 à 15:10, Nicolas VIGNERON
Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was
referring to items like this one>> > > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this
example is even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).>> > >
For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and
I'm not sure what this tools can even do for this).>> > >
Cdlt, ~nicolas
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Jane Darnell
2017-11-01 09:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Yes you definitely need this flow of useful&visible interproject links both
ways: as a trigger for Wikidatans to do more with Wikisource pages, and as
a trigger to Wikisourcerers to do more with Wikidata items
Yup, still true. We do at least have a common goal of structured HTML, as
defined by http://schema.org/CreativeWork
It sounds like Tpt's scraper will do wonders, if a Wikisource just
complies to that. I think that's one of the next steps we need to take.
I sort of figure from the English Wikisource point of view that we should
do more on bringing data *in* from Wikidata, in our {{header}}, rather than
working on making it easier to extract data *out* with
microformats/structured-HTML. Well, we should do both, of course! :-) But
my feeling from the process of getting Author data in from Wikidata is that
the whole Wikidata integration becomes so much more worthwhile and clearer
(and we sort out the various edge cases) when we're actively using it for
real.
But of course, each Wikisource is in a similar position. :-( And are we to
all be developing the Lua scripts and templates in isolation? Indeed no!
:-) We shall put them all toegther in our brave new Wikisource extension! :)
—sam
@Sam, Tpt,
my personal experience is too that HTML is the way to pull out the
Wikisource important metadata,
but it's also that every Wikisource has sort of a different way to show
them,
meaning that you need to tweak your scraper for each Wikisource.
Is that still true? Last time I did it was more than one year ago, but I
need to try it again soon.
Aubrey
Yes I think you're definitely right! The easier way to send Wikisource
data to Wikidata is going to be a clever gadget that reads the
microformat or schema'd info in each page. My hack was just a quick and
easy test at getting some things added. :)
Ultimately, I'm actually not that excited about working on the tools
that we need to transfer the data. No no I don't mean that! Well, just
that the end point we're aiming at is that a bunch of info *won't be* at
all in Wikisource, but will be pulled from Wikidata, and so I am much
more interested in making better tools for working with the data in
Wikidata. :-) If you see what I mean.
My idea with ws-search is that it will progressively pull more and more
data from Wikidata, and only resort to HTML scraping where the data is
missing from Wikidata. I'm attempting to encapsulate this logic in the
`wikisource/api` PHP library.
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Hello Sam,
Thank you for this nice feature!
I have created a few months ago a prototype of Wikisource to Wikidata
importation tool for the French Wikisource based on the schema.org
annotation I have added to the main header template (I definitely think
we should move from our custom microformat to this schema.org markup
that
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
could be much more structured). It's not yet ready but I plan to move it
forward in the coming weeks. A beginning of frontend to add to your
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Tpt/ws2wd.js
We should probably find a way to merge the two projects.
Cheers,
Thomas
Post by Jane Darnell
Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was
referring to items like this one
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Post by Jane Darnell
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this example
is even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Post by Jane Darnell
For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and I'm not
sure what this tools can even do for this).
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Post by Jane Darnell
Cdlt, ~nicolas
_______________________________________________
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
_______________________________________________
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
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Andrea Zanni
2017-11-01 09:58:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Authors from Italian Wikisource have already a lot (if not all) metadata on
Wikidata:
authors are *easy* compared to books (don't have the whole work-edition
issue),
so I think that users Candalua, Alex brollo and others solved this problem
long ago.

When you've copied all the metadata from WS authors to WD items (phase 1),
you then need a system in place to
* pull the data from WD and put it in WS (Lua templates or something)
* maintain it (the templates need to remind the user to go to WD and update
the information)
This is phase 2.

Unfortunately, for books we're always pre-phase 1 :-(

Aubrey
Post by Jane Darnell
Yes you definitely need this flow of useful&visible interproject links
both ways: as a trigger for Wikidatans to do more with Wikisource pages,
and as a trigger to Wikisourcerers to do more with Wikidata items
Yup, still true. We do at least have a common goal of structured HTML, as
defined by http://schema.org/CreativeWork
It sounds like Tpt's scraper will do wonders, if a Wikisource just
complies to that. I think that's one of the next steps we need to take.
I sort of figure from the English Wikisource point of view that we should
do more on bringing data *in* from Wikidata, in our {{header}}, rather than
working on making it easier to extract data *out* with
microformats/structured-HTML. Well, we should do both, of course! :-) But
my feeling from the process of getting Author data in from Wikidata is that
the whole Wikidata integration becomes so much more worthwhile and clearer
(and we sort out the various edge cases) when we're actively using it for
real.
But of course, each Wikisource is in a similar position. :-( And are we
to all be developing the Lua scripts and templates in isolation? Indeed no!
:-) We shall put them all toegther in our brave new Wikisource extension! :)
—sam
@Sam, Tpt,
my personal experience is too that HTML is the way to pull out the
Wikisource important metadata,
but it's also that every Wikisource has sort of a different way to show
them,
meaning that you need to tweak your scraper for each Wikisource.
Is that still true? Last time I did it was more than one year ago, but I
need to try it again soon.
Aubrey
Yes I think you're definitely right! The easier way to send Wikisource
data to Wikidata is going to be a clever gadget that reads the
microformat or schema'd info in each page. My hack was just a quick and
easy test at getting some things added. :)
Ultimately, I'm actually not that excited about working on the tools
that we need to transfer the data. No no I don't mean that! Well, just
that the end point we're aiming at is that a bunch of info *won't be* at
all in Wikisource, but will be pulled from Wikidata, and so I am much
more interested in making better tools for working with the data in
Wikidata. :-) If you see what I mean.
My idea with ws-search is that it will progressively pull more and more
data from Wikidata, and only resort to HTML scraping where the data is
missing from Wikidata. I'm attempting to encapsulate this logic in the
`wikisource/api` PHP library.
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Hello Sam,
Thank you for this nice feature!
I have created a few months ago a prototype of Wikisource to Wikidata
importation tool for the French Wikisource based on the schema.org
annotation I have added to the main header template (I definitely think
we should move from our custom microformat to this schema.org markup
that
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
could be much more structured). It's not yet ready but I plan to move it
forward in the coming weeks. A beginning of frontend to add to your
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Tpt/ws2wd.js
We should probably find a way to merge the two projects.
Cheers,
Thomas
Post by Jane Darnell
Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was
referring to items like this one
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Post by Jane Darnell
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this
example is even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Post by Jane Darnell
For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and I'm
not sure what this tools can even do for this).
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Post by Jane Darnell
Cdlt, ~nicolas
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Sam Wilson
2017-11-02 09:50:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I've been experimenting with pulling editions' author information in
from Wikidata, and it's reasonably easy if wea) look at the immediate page's WD item, and see if it's got an author;b if it doesn't, traverse up via P629 to the work, and see if it's got
an author.If neither of those things exist, give up.
If an author was found somewhere, see if it's got a sitelink to
Wikisource andthen display it either with or without a link.
The list of authors is then joined together with commas or
whatever you want.
That seems to work for a good chunk of cases on English Wikisource. Is
that sort of thing universal amongst Wikisources?
It fails on things like organisational authors, and doesn't do anything
with translators (although the same process could be followed for
them... sort of).
I'd love to develop a cross-Wikisource lua module that could display a
list of authors, if it's possible.
Small steps! :-)
Post by Andrea Zanni
Authors from Italian Wikisource have already a lot (if not all)
metadata on Wikidata:> authors are *easy* compared to books (don't have the whole work-
edition issue),> so I think that users Candalua, Alex brollo and others solved this
problem long ago.> When you've copied all the metadata from WS authors to WD items
(phase 1),> you then need a system in place to
* pull the data from WD and put it in WS (Lua templates or something)> * maintain it (the templates need to remind the user to go to WD and
update the information)> This is phase 2.
Unfortunately, for books we're always pre-phase 1 :-(
Aubrey
On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Jane Darnell
links both ways: as a trigger for Wikidatans to do more with
Wikisource pages, and as a trigger to Wikisourcerers to do more with
Wikidata items>>
On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 10:01 AM, Sam Wilson
Post by Sam Wilson
Yup, still true. We do at least have a common goal of structured
HTML, as defined by http://schema.org/CreativeWork>>>
It sounds like Tpt's scraper will do wonders, if a Wikisource
just complies to that. I think that's one of the next steps we
need to take.>>>
I sort of figure from the English Wikisource point of view that we
should do more on bringing data *in* from Wikidata, in our
{{header}}, rather than working on making it easier to extract data
*out* with microformats/structured-HTML. Well, we should do both, of
course! :-) But my feeling from the process of getting Author data
in from Wikidata is that the whole Wikidata integration becomes so
much more worthwhile and clearer (and we sort out the various edge
cases) when we're actively using it for real.>>>
But of course, each Wikisource is in a similar position. :-( And are
we to all be developing the Lua scripts and templates in isolation?
Indeed no! :-) We shall put them all toegther in our brave new
Wikisource extension! :)>>>
—sam
Post by Andrea Zanni
@Sam, Tpt,
my personal experience is too that HTML is the way to pull out the
Wikisource important metadata,>>>> but it's also that every Wikisource has sort of a different way to
show them,>>>> meaning that you need to tweak your scraper for each Wikisource.
Is that still true? Last time I did it was more than one year ago,
but I need to try it again soon.>>>> Aubrey
wrote:>>>>> Yes I think you're definitely right! The easier way to send
Wikisource>>>>> data to Wikidata is going to be a clever gadget that reads the
microformat or schema'd info in each page. My hack was just a
quick and>>>>> easy test at getting some things added. :)
Ultimately, I'm actually not that excited about working on the
tools>>>>> that we need to transfer the data. No no I don't mean that! Well,
just>>>>> that the end point we're aiming at is that a bunch of info *won't
be* at>>>>> all in Wikisource, but will be pulled from Wikidata, and so I am
much>>>>> more interested in making better tools for working with the
data in>>>>> Wikidata. :-) If you see what I mean.
My idea with ws-search is that it will progressively pull more and
more>>>>> data from Wikidata, and only resort to HTML scraping where the
data is>>>>> missing from Wikidata. I'm attempting to encapsulate this logic
in the>>>>> `wikisource/api` PHP library.
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Hello Sam,
Thank you for this nice feature!
I have created a few months ago a prototype of Wikisource to
Wikidata>>>>> > importation tool for the French Wikisource based on the
schema.org>>>>> > annotation I have added to the main header template (I
definitely think>>>>> > we should move from our custom microformat to this schema.org
markup that>>>>> > could be much more structured). It's not yet ready but I plan to
move it>>>>> > forward in the coming weeks. A beginning of frontend to add to
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Tpt/ws2wd.js
We should probably find a way to merge the two projects.
Cheers,
Thomas
Le 31 oct. 2017 à 15:10, Nicolas VIGNERON
Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I
was referring to items like this one>>>>> > > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this
example is even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).>>>>> > >
For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and
I'm not sure what this tools can even do for this).>>>>> > >
Cdlt, ~nicolas
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mathieu stumpf guntz
2017-11-01 13:39:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hey everyone,

I seize the opportunity of this planed import to make you aware that I
started a project research on Wikiversity about Wikidata and its license :

https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/Recherche:La_licence_CC-0_de_Wikidata,_origine_du_choix,_enjeux,_et_prospections_sur_les_aspects_de_gouvernance_communautaire_et_d%E2%80%99%C3%A9quit%C3%A9_contributive

Admittedly, a driving force behind the launch of this project is an
intuitive aversion against CC0, and the will of the Wikidata team to
launch their lexicological solution with, without, or even against
Wiktionary communities. But as intuition is never as useful as when
feeding hypotheses of rational inquiry whose conclusions might reject
it, I thought preferable to make such a research project so I could
stand on a firmer vision of implications of this choice.

Also, whatever one might ethically feel about this topic is one thing,
legal issues is a really different matter. So far, I have didn't found
any evidence of a serious inquiry of letting people make mass import of
data within Wikidata. But hopefully I'll soon be given links showing
such an inquiry was indeed performed. Not requiring source and evidence
of a free license covering imported data is a great way to put at risk
of massive legal infraction, not only the Wikidata project, but anyone
who reuse its data.

I welcome any source that you might judge valuable for the research
project evoked above. That is anything speaking about how the license
was chose, opinion of the community regarding this choice, ins and outs
of the reuse ability, what notable partnership was ease or prevented due
to the license, how external reusers do or do not give back through one
form (better curated or enlarged set of data), or an other (technical
advises, institutional promotion, funds
), and anything you think worth
mentioning regarding Wikidata license. It would be kind to check it is
not already in the list of sources I fetched so far, see
https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/Recherche:La_licence_CC-0_de_Wikidata,_origine_du_choix,_enjeux,_et_prospections_sur_les_aspects_de_gouvernance_communautaire_et_d%E2%80%99%C3%A9quit%C3%A9_contributive/Wikidata_:_les_origines_du_choix_de_CC-0#Notes_et_r.C3.A9ferences

Also let me know if you would be interested with a translation. So far
I'm writing it in my native language to hasten the draft outcome and I
don't necessarily expect huge interest for the subject beyond myself.
But if people show interest, or even would like to contribute, I can
switch to Esperanto, or even the less likely demand of an English
version. ;)

Inquirely,
psychoslave
Post by Thomas Pellissier Tanon
Hello Sam,
Thank you for this nice feature!
I have created a few months ago a prototype of Wikisource to Wikidata importation tool for the French Wikisource based on the schema.org annotation I have added to the main header template (I definitely think we should move from our custom microformat to this schema.org markup that could be much more structured). It's not yet ready but I plan to move it forward in the coming weeks. A beginning of frontend to add to your Wikidata common.js is here: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Tpt/ws2wd.js
We should probably find a way to merge the two projects.
Cheers,
Thomas
Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was referring to items like this one
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this example is even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).
For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and I'm not sure what this tools can even do for this).
Cdlt, ~nicolas
_______________________________________________
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Yann Forget
2017-11-02 13:14:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi,

Wikidata is a list of facts, so I don't see how any other license would be
appropriate.
It is similar to copyright on patents and facts, as some commercial
entities have tried to impose. I am obviously against that.
I am also against copyright restrictions for databases, as they existed in
some countries, so I can't advocate puting one on Wikidata.
The objective, like the rest of Wikimedia, is allowing the widest possible
use of knowledge. CC0 for Wikidata fits quite well with this objective.

Regards,

Yann

2017-11-01 14:39 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <
Post by mathieu stumpf guntz
Hey everyone,
I seize the opportunity of this planed import to make you aware that I
https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/Recherche:La_licence_CC-
0_de_Wikidata,_origine_du_choix,_enjeux,_et_prospections_sur_les_aspects_
de_gouvernance_communautaire_et_d%E2%80%99%C3%A9quit%C3%A9_contributive
Admittedly, a driving force behind the launch of this project is an
intuitive aversion against CC0, and the will of the Wikidata team to launch
their lexicological solution with, without, or even against Wiktionary
communities. But as intuition is never as useful as when feeding hypotheses
of rational inquiry whose conclusions might reject it, I thought preferable
to make such a research project so I could stand on a firmer vision of
implications of this choice.
Also, whatever one might ethically feel about this topic is one thing,
legal issues is a really different matter. So far, I have didn't found any
evidence of a serious inquiry of letting people make mass import of data
within Wikidata. But hopefully I'll soon be given links showing such an
inquiry was indeed performed. Not requiring source and evidence of a free
license covering imported data is a great way to put at risk of massive
legal infraction, not only the Wikidata project, but anyone who reuse its
data.
I welcome any source that you might judge valuable for the research
project evoked above. That is anything speaking about how the license was
chose, opinion of the community regarding this choice, ins and outs of the
reuse ability, what notable partnership was ease or prevented due to the
license, how external reusers do or do not give back through one form
(better curated or enlarged set of data), or an other (technical advises,
institutional promotion, funds
), and anything you think worth mentioning
regarding Wikidata license. It would be kind to check it is not already in
the list of sources I fetched so far, see https://fr.wikiversity.org/
wiki/Recherche:La_licence_CC-0_de_Wikidata,_origine_du_choix,_enjeux,_et_
prospections_sur_les_aspects_de_gouvernance_communautaire_
et_d%E2%80%99%C3%A9quit%C3%A9_contributive/Wikidata_:_les_
origines_du_choix_de_CC-0#Notes_et_r.C3.A9ferences
Also let me know if you would be interested with a translation. So far I'm
writing it in my native language to hasten the draft outcome and I don't
necessarily expect huge interest for the subject beyond myself. But if
people show interest, or even would like to contribute, I can switch to
Esperanto, or even the less likely demand of an English version. ;)
Inquirely,
psychoslave
Hello Sam,
Thank you for this nice feature!
I have created a few months ago a prototype of Wikisource to Wikidata importation tool for the French Wikisource based on the schema.org annotation I have added to the main header template (I definitely think we should move from our custom microformat to this schema.org markup that could be much more structured). It's not yet ready but I plan to move it forward in the coming weeks. A beginning of frontend to add to your Wikidata common.js is here: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Tpt/ws2wd.js
We should probably find a way to merge the two projects.
Cheers,
Thomas
Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was referring to items like this onehttps://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this example is even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).
For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and I'm not sure what this tools can even do for this).
Cdlt, ~nicolas
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
Wikisource-l mailing list
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Andrea Zanni
2017-11-03 08:58:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Anyway, Sam,
please continue the development of the Ws-search.
I just played with it a bit, but I find this to be an excellent tool for
1. importing data from WS to WD
2. *maintaining* WD up to date

Point 2 is important as point 1.

Maintenance is impossible if you can't do queries on WD or a system to
"check" if your book is on WD or not.

Aubrey
Post by Yann Forget
Hi,
Wikidata is a list of facts, so I don't see how any other license would be
appropriate.
It is similar to copyright on patents and facts, as some commercial
entities have tried to impose. I am obviously against that.
I am also against copyright restrictions for databases, as they existed in
some countries, so I can't advocate puting one on Wikidata.
The objective, like the rest of Wikimedia, is allowing the widest possible
use of knowledge. CC0 for Wikidata fits quite well with this objective.
Regards,
Yann
2017-11-01 14:39 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <
Post by mathieu stumpf guntz
Hey everyone,
I seize the opportunity of this planed import to make you aware that I
https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/Recherche:La_licence_CC-0_
de_Wikidata,_origine_du_choix,_enjeux,_et_prospections_sur_
les_aspects_de_gouvernance_communautaire_et_d%E2%80%99%
C3%A9quit%C3%A9_contributive
Admittedly, a driving force behind the launch of this project is an
intuitive aversion against CC0, and the will of the Wikidata team to launch
their lexicological solution with, without, or even against Wiktionary
communities. But as intuition is never as useful as when feeding hypotheses
of rational inquiry whose conclusions might reject it, I thought preferable
to make such a research project so I could stand on a firmer vision of
implications of this choice.
Also, whatever one might ethically feel about this topic is one thing,
legal issues is a really different matter. So far, I have didn't found any
evidence of a serious inquiry of letting people make mass import of data
within Wikidata. But hopefully I'll soon be given links showing such an
inquiry was indeed performed. Not requiring source and evidence of a free
license covering imported data is a great way to put at risk of massive
legal infraction, not only the Wikidata project, but anyone who reuse its
data.
I welcome any source that you might judge valuable for the research
project evoked above. That is anything speaking about how the license was
chose, opinion of the community regarding this choice, ins and outs of the
reuse ability, what notable partnership was ease or prevented due to the
license, how external reusers do or do not give back through one form
(better curated or enlarged set of data), or an other (technical advises,
institutional promotion, funds
), and anything you think worth mentioning
regarding Wikidata license. It would be kind to check it is not already in
the list of sources I fetched so far, see https://fr.wikiversity.org/wik
i/Recherche:La_licence_CC-0_de_Wikidata,_origine_du_choix,
_enjeux,_et_prospections_sur_les_aspects_de_gouvernance_
communautaire_et_d%E2%80%99%C3%A9quit%C3%A9_contributive/
Wikidata_:_les_origines_du_choix_de_CC-0#Notes_et_r.C3.A9ferences
Also let me know if you would be interested with a translation. So far
I'm writing it in my native language to hasten the draft outcome and I
don't necessarily expect huge interest for the subject beyond myself. But
if people show interest, or even would like to contribute, I can switch to
Esperanto, or even the less likely demand of an English version. ;)
Inquirely,
psychoslave
Hello Sam,
Thank you for this nice feature!
I have created a few months ago a prototype of Wikisource to Wikidata importation tool for the French Wikisource based on the schema.org annotation I have added to the main header template (I definitely think we should move from our custom microformat to this schema.org markup that could be much more structured). It's not yet ready but I plan to move it forward in the coming weeks. A beginning of frontend to add to your Wikidata common.js is here: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Tpt/ws2wd.js
We should probably find a way to merge the two projects.
Cheers,
Thomas
Sorry, I am much more of a Wikidatan than a Wikisourcerer! I was referring to items like this onehttps://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q21125368
No need to be sorry, that is actually a good question and this example is even better (I totally forgot this kind of case).
For now, this is probably better to deal with it by hands (and I'm not sure what this tools can even do for this).
Cdlt, ~nicolas
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